A big thank you to everyone who participated, and a special congratulations to the top finishers! In 1st place, we have "ThreeG" (up from 16th in last season). 2nd place is "KenC456" (new this season) and in 3rd we have "TC2" which is someone who is becoming a regular top 10 finisher! As our regular reminder to keep improving and fight your way to the top, we recommend reading through the cribbage strategy tips and the many related blog posts to sharpen up, and if you're serious about improving there are tons of great strategy books out there that you should really consider.
As with past seasons, everyone who finished the season in the Top 50 ("Recent" list), have been awarded both a special in-game "board peg" as well as Cribbage Pro Gold that can be used in the Cribbage Pro Contests system and then redeemed for cash (awards must be used at least once in a Contest to be cashed out to USDC, see the full terms and conditions for details). The top finisher is awarded the "crown" board peg, and all others in the Top 50 are awarded a "star" board peg. These pegs are shown to everyone when playing in online multiplayer games, and they are permanent, so if you see your opponent has one of them you can know that they have earned it by finishing in the Top 50 in competitive play. The Cribbage Pro Gold awards are as follows (not cumulative):
- 2 Gold for Top 50
- 4 Gold for Top 25
- 10 Gold for Top 10
- 20 Gold for 3rd Place
- 30 Gold for 2nd Place
- 50 Gold for 1st Place
Here was the final Top 50 for Season 3:
| 1 | ThreeG | 26 | yvanobc12 |
| 2 | KenC456 | 27 | Doksboy |
| 3 | TC2 | 28 | Looie3nba |
| 4 | Gssj21 | 29 | konadive |
| 5 | fisher17 | 30 | nob4one |
| 6 | iPeg | 31 | Mharold |
| 7 | 4KA | 32 | 2fast4you |
| 8 | BigD4Life | 33 | jimmy15 |
| 9 | lbolt58 | 34 | MTBiggs |
| 10 | rattle15 | 35 | MyLuckSux |
| 11 | VGKnights | 36 | 180558 |
| 12 | cribfan44 | 37 | Domerzag |
| 13 | jmath714 | 38 | Br1Guy |
| 14 | CT398 | 39 | cbx1000z |
| 15 | calgary99 | 40 | 47don |
| 16 | jjonell | 41 | better69 |
| 17 | Task | 42 | Dpac |
| 18 | dcpastore | 43 | jwr13 |
| 19 | canucount | 44 | jmbird989 |
| 20 | Yompopo | 45 | Aureate |
| 21 | gsosin | 46 | Duane1952 |
| 22 | WhyADuck | 47 | Birddoggy |
| 23 | rocks19 | 48 | sums11 |
| 24 | LePone | 49 | Cribbfest |
| 25 | scout3 | 50 | charron |
Are there plans to have a best of one game format instead of 2 out 3?
ReplyDeleteNo, not at this time. We feel we need to balance the desire to play relatively quickly/easily with the need to focus on skill over luck as much as possible. It is a tough balance, but so far the 3 game match format seems to be working.
DeleteWould love to be able to see statistics somewhere - average peg, hand, crib, etc. (dealer &pone)from the competitive matches. head to head data and averages for the levels would be cool too. Any chance that data can ever be made available?
ReplyDeleteHi, we are looking at adding a game/match summary screen to all online multiplayer games that can provide some of this in the future. More stats are also on our list of things to add in the future.
DeleteCould the full standings be posted? It would be great to see how many stayed to the end and where I stood. I was 300 of how many? 301? 1000?
ReplyDeleteHi, we don't publish a total users count publicly, but you can use the percentile ranking value to get a good idea of where you stand overall and relative to everyone else.
DeleteThat sounds good actually. Where can I find the percentile after a season has completed? Thanks.
DeleteEmail us at support@FullerSystems.com with your request and include your username, and I can look up historical data for you. Today we only show current standings in the Leaderboard in the game.
DeleteWhy don’t skunks count like it does in real crib?
ReplyDeleteHi, certainly there are different ways to consider a skunk in a system like this. You can't skunk a best of series, just an individual game in the series, so that is why you won't see a skunk stat in this case. We also don't count a skunk as two games, because we believe (based on some analysis) that skill is best measured when each game is considered independent.
DeleteThere is no skill in crib it’s all luck and a skunk is a skunk
ReplyDeleteHave you ever played in a “REAL” crib tournament?
I have lots of times
Why would you compete in lots of cribbage tournaments if there isn't any skill involved?
DeleteYou are very wrong. That is all.
DeleteThis sounds like someone who doesn't know cribbage strategy very well. It's luck thT after 1500 contests my winning percentage is 59%.
DeleteCribbage Pro will place you in an algorithm which may ot may not benefit you. Season 4’s been terrible for me. My hand scores 4, my opponent scores 8. Consistently. Way beyond the law of averages. That’s OK tho, I’ve still got cards and a board if I want to play real cribbage.
DeleteIf you lose game one you will lose the match. It’s not a skills thing, it’s a flawed algorithm or programming.
ReplyDeleteAs we have shown extensively, and even offered to let anyone view the code, all shuffling is always random and there is no stacking the deck or anything else like that. Losing one game in a match is in no way an indicator of if you will necessarily win or lose the next. If you are not certain there is any skill in cribbage, consider reading some of the many great cribbage strategy books and/or the several strategy blog posts available here. This doesn't mean there isn't some significant luck in the cards you are dealt, but it is simply demonstrably incorrect to assume skill isn't an important factor.
DeleteDemonstrably. Lol, it’s seriously flawed.
DeleteBy all means, if you are certain we have made a flawed system, take us up on that offer to view the code itself to prove it. We have nothing to hide. If you look at the data we have provided that shows the fairness and random shuffle and have any questions about it that you believe show it to be flawed in some way, or would like to see something more, then just ask. When it comes to evaluating claims, like your claim something is flawed, logic and reason must be the path used in reviewing actual evidence. We are absolutely willing to do that and engage with you in that journey if you are also willing, just email any time to support@FullerSystems.com
DeleteI just beat unicorn50 by winning games 2 & 3.
DeleteNot true. I’ve come back plenty of times to win after losing the first game.
DeleteI've won multiple times after losing the first game, and lost after winning the first
DeleteI would like to see manual scoring introduced into competitive matches. I feel that automatic scoring removes a key aspect from the game. Frankly I find it boring. Just my $0.02
ReplyDeleteI hear you. If we had a lot of support for that, we can consider adding it, but right now there doesn't seem to be enough manual counting players to really support a good competitive system.
DeleteI agree in theory, but in practice it would slow things down tremendously. No bueno, imo.
DeleteWhat should you do if a game you are about to easily win suddenly goes into a permanent ‘rejoining game’ mode, presumably because of something the other player has done?
ReplyDeleteHi, if you see something saying that you are reconnecting, then it is likely your connection that has failed for some reason and it is trying to connect back again. Ideally, let it sit there until it does reconnect and do whatever you can to improve your connection at the same time.
DeleteThanks. It has been like it for 12 hours or more. My broadband connection was strong throughout and the game went into this mode when I was three points from winning. It’s definitely something that happened at the other end, but I’m left hanging!
ReplyDeleteThis definitely sounds like something different. Please email us at support@FullerSystems.com and include your username and the approximate time that the match started. If there was a system problem of some kind, we can reverse the match results.
DeleteDuring the competitive matching series if a player quits before the end of the third game in the series, the entire match does not count. Therefore someone trying to initially rank very high just quits a match if they are losing and there seems to be no negative consequence.
ReplyDeleteTo be clear this has occurred during the placement matches
DeleteHi, that isn't exactly what is happening in that case. If someone disconnects in a match, they will absolutely get the loss and the penalty that goes with it. However, an incompleted match simply doesn't increment the placement matches counter to prevent a specific kind of cheating that would be possible otherwise. You still get the win, they still get the loss and the resulting impact to your placement CR is the same.
DeleteI don’t think that is correct, I never received credit for matches played where I clearly would have won but for opponents quitting. I understand that the quitter does not get credit, but the player that did not quit is also penalized.
DeleteWe can definitely review any match that you don't believe was counted correctly. Just email us at support@FullerSystems.com so we can investigate it further with you directly. The person who wins in a disconnect situation will not get it counted towards their placement matches either, but they do still get the win credit in all other ways.
DeleteThat is my point, why should the person who does Not quit a game DURING the Placement Matches be penalized by not getting credit for winning a given match when opponent quits? This just happened to me again. So the reality is I have played a total of 5 placement matches for this season. Of those 5 matches, 3 opponents have quit because they were about to lose. Meaning I would have won those 3 placement matches. However, your program shows I have only completed 2 placement matches out of the 5 needed. I don’t understand why the person that does NOT quit does not get credit for a win in Placement Match.
DeleteYou are getting full credit for the win in every sense with respect to your stats, your CR, etc. However, in order to avoid a particular method someone could try to use to cheat the system, it can not increment the placement matches counter.
DeleteAh, I think that is what must have happened. It’s a bit frustrating!!
ReplyDeleteI'd just like to thank Fuller Systems for doing this. The app alone was great, adding in the competitive matches just put it over the top. Thank you!
ReplyDeleteThanks for your support of the game! I agree it has been a lot of fun to add this feature and watch everyone participate!
DeleteHi, could you confirm that a player disconnecting is the exact equivalent (in terms of points) to a “proper” win. I’ve had it a few times ina close game, whereby a player delays playing their very last card in order to count up my hand. If they see that I have won the match then they just leave their session as long as possible before it disconnects. The most recent occurrence of this was about 10 minutes ago against a player called Groglar. Very bad sportsmanship in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the great game!
Pete (Vindaloo)
Hi Pete, yes, not only is it a win for you, but it is a loss for them and it is penalized in other ways too. It is in no way an advantage to them to do that, and it is in fact a disadvantage. We may increase that penalty in the future as well.
DeleteThis exact "strategy" happened to me too by very same player you mentioned. The player was clearly trying to have me quit the game by disconnecting multiple times when I was about to win a match. Frustrating!
DeleteJust played Groglar again and won 2-0. Again, they left the game hanging when it was clear I’d won, and eventually disconnected without completing the game. Can this pattern be detected and dealt with somehow? Or as you’ve already suggested, increase the penalty?
DeleteYes, and yes. As mentioned before, we are considering some changes around penalty for disconnect.
DeleteI'm not sure i understand what's the big deal about quitting? We play at lunch here at work and once a skunk is avoided if the game is hopeless a player can throw the cards in. Seems the same to me here. The winner gets same credit if someone disconnects as if they finished. I actually like when someone does as it saves me time. If someone hates when another disconnects and needs their ego massaged, then that's a different story. Someone's pouting and continually delaying play during the game is more a cause for complaint of course...
Deletehow do i join
ReplyDeleteInstall the game, open it and select the Multiplayer button, register an account and then log in and select the Competitive Matchmaking section to start finding matches. If you have any questions along the way, just ask at support@FullerSystems.com
DeleteHi
ReplyDeleteAny chance of seeing overall winning percentages of the top players? I've always thought that is the best measure of a players skill.
ReplyDeleteYou can see any players stats by selecting them in the Leaderboard.
DeleteAny thought to making it "must play 10 games a week"?its of players seem to sit on ratings the last few weeks.great format, thanks for maintaining the app and adding this.
ReplyDeleteI started a match and my opponent quit as soon as they came into the game.
ReplyDeleteThe program said he quit and that I had won the match but it never regestered as a win.
How often does this happen? Do we need to monitor ever win/loss? I thought that would be your job.
Every detail of every game of every match is recorded. You may have just not seen the placement matches change, which is expected, or there is a small chance that the match never was fully joined by both players and so never actually started. To know exactly, please email us at support@FullerSystems.com so we can investigate it further with you.
DeleteThere are flaws with this game I love playing crib but am considering never playing online again I had 1 double skunk a few months back ,player disconnects in last hand it said I won but didn’t count . Then last night I was playing a player named quickl or quick1 and I skunked this person the first competitive match then was skunked myself the second match third match I skunked again and they disconnected for a few moments I should be awarded the win but was not , this is bs why would I continue playing here
ReplyDeleteThis game happened around 1 am today est
DeleteHi, email us at support@FullerSystms.com and include your username, and we can definitely look into it for you.
DeleteThere is a forfeit game button, so why is there a penalty for pushing it?
ReplyDeleteThe forfeit exists for those cases when life demands that you leave a game. The penalty exists to prevent abuse of exiting prior to the end of the game, but in this case it is really just a 5 minute wait required before your next match.
DeleteAnd what is the penalty?
ReplyDeleteAs mentioned above, for an explicit forfeit it is generally just a 5 minute wait before your next match. That said, there is potential for a CR penalty determined dynamically based on exiting early, but we don't currently enforce it.
DeleteI play competitive tourney and regular. I am 50% in regular but a dreadful 33% in tourney. The hands i’m dealt in tourney are remarkably much worse than regular competitive. What gives?
ReplyDeleteThe entire system is identical between all forms of game play, even single player games. It is always using a random shuffle and never stacking the deck or anything else like that, and definitely no different depending on game type or anything else like that. The code is in fact written in such a way that the deck shuffle system is entirely independent of every game and has no information about what game it is providing cards for.
DeleteFuller. Great game. There are a few bad apples who continue to intentionally quit when about to be skunked or double skunked. Speaking for many of your players, would be great if there was a material penalty for this unsportsmanlike behavior. Such as, counts as 10 losses, one week ban, suspension. Just my 2 cents.
DeleteWhat gets me to xp level 100 in classic games
ReplyDeleteHi, check out the FAQ here: http://www.cribbagepro.net/faq-how-to.html#q11
DeleteRandom cards 😊are you kidding me
DeleteI’ve gotten the same hand dealt to me in the same round who’s paying you?
How do I get a code for tickets so I can crib in the tournaments
ReplyDeleteHi, this sounds like an email we just received, so I'm including the same answer here. There are no "tickets" in our game, and nothing is required to play in any type of our games except for the Contests system where you can purchase Cribbage Pro Gold and then play games to later redeem real cash prizes.
DeleteI have a serious question relating to the time of day when one plays a round or two and a situation that causes that same one to be penalized for timing out. Given that one is near to his pillow and looking for a last bit of enjoyment for the day, I strongly request that your team creates a way to confirm the drowsiness state of either of the players so that one is not unfairly penalized for falling azleepzzzz.
ReplyDeleteIt would be cool to have a way for your device to report a drowsy level! Kind of like a device that prevents drunk driving, but to prevent sleepy cribbage playing.
DeleteWhat role does a player's CR score play? Mine is over 4,000 and I've been matched up against someone whose CR was 2,000.
ReplyDeleteYour CR is your skill ranking, but it doesn't always prevent you from playing someone lower or starting out. The system must allow lower ranked players the chance to challenge higher ranked players while also balancing wait time for a match.
DeleteDoes a bigger difference in CRs represent a bigger impact on the change in ranking compared to two players who have closer CRs?
DeleteThat is actually a complex question (about difference in CR) because there isn't a simple yes/no answer. The CR you see is actually the output of a formula using multiple factors. Each of those factors contribute to how the outcome of a match will impact each of the player's skill values independently (you don't necessarily gain the same amount your opponent loses, for instance). So although generally speaking the larger the difference between the CR values you see will also represent a difference in multiple of the underlying factors, and so could result in a larger change from the outcome of the match, it would not be 100% the case. So, as you would likely expect, winning against a higher CR player can have more impact than a lower ranked player in some cases, but I hesitate in generalizing here because the difference may be very slight as well. Know that the system understands things like how long someone has played and been ranked, how confident the system is in their ranking and similar things to account for the impacts of something like a fluke win or loss against a player of significant CR delta. If you take a larger hit by playing and losing against a lower ranked player, you can usually recover from that relatively quickly as well.
DeleteBalancing wait times shouldn't be a reason for high rated players to be matched up against against those who are low rated. I've been matched up against those with more than a 2,000 point difference. That's poor design. There should be a limit and players can either wait or be told there aren't matches available. Otherwise you may as well scrap the ladder rankings and randomly assign matches.👎
DeleteHi Jason, there are absolutely matching criteria and limits in place, and the system will simply not find a match at all if it can't find something within the limits. However, the CR you see is just the output of a relatively complex formula and so it isn't as simple as finding a match with someone at a certain CR delta.
DeleteI get there are matching criteria but I don't understand what role CR plays when two players with significant differences in CR get paired up. I'm 4100+ and I just got matched against someone with a CR of 2568. This almost always happens with a longer wait time.
ReplyDeleteThe longer you wait, the more likely you will be matched against someone with skill factors of a delta larger than at the beginning. This is because, as with most matchmaking systems, it starts out looking for the most ideal match first and then slowly broadens that search. If you are want to avoid that, you can always just cancel the search earlier if you want. The point about CR earlier is that the value you are seeing as just a computed result, and so ultimately the CR is not what is used in matchmaking, but the several underlying factors are what is used.
DeleteWhat happened to the PC beta test I volunteered for?
ReplyDeleteWe haven't been discussing plans for other platforms really yet, but now is as good a time as any I suppose. We ran into some complex things we had to deal with more broadly, which slowed down the process to get new platforms ready for testing. We don't have a large team, so when these things happen it can have broad impacts. Our focus is on quality as much as possible, even for a beta, but if you have provided your information for that beta, we will be in touch when it's ready. All I can say right now is hopefully relatively soon.
DeleteI like the 10 second timer to keep the game moving. The first time I take too long I get a message that says I have warnings left. Do you lose the match on your 4th warning?
ReplyDeleteOnce you have exceeded the warnings, you will be kicked out and lose the match.
DeleteGreat game. There are a few bad apples who continue to intentionally quit when about to be skunked or double skunked. Speaking for many of your players, would be great if there was a material penalty for this unsportsmanlike behavior. Such as, counts as 10 losses, one week ban, suspension. Just my 2 cents.
ReplyDeleteQuits still count as a win. I don't mind if an opponent quits as long as they purposely don't run the clock on each hand. It would be useful to have a Forfeit button so players can voluntarily concede a game.
DeleteAgreed, a 'forfeit' button would be very useful to end a 'hopeless' game but not give up the best-of-three
DeleteHow often do ranks get updated following a match?
ReplyDeleteYour CR is updated immediately following a match. The leaderboard is updated once per hour.
DeleteThank you 👍
DeleteLove the game in general but even though you've tried to explain how your ranking system works I still don't get it?
DeleteIs there someway that you can randomise the hands better (eg the much missed "Pogo" cribbage seemed to have much more "true to life" hands than you ? )
@Unknown The CR system is described in the original blog post announcing it. Follow the links there for details, or email us with specific questions.
DeleteFor the random shuffle used, there is no way to make something that is already random, "more random", but the key here is going to be that true random is not always like a physical deck (or "true to life", as you put it). In life with a physical deck of cards, they are very often not fully randomized, and so the feel of a game that does randomize compared to that will simply always be different. Frankly, I don't concern myself much with what kinds of shuffling a competitor has/had, but instead I focus on making sure we have the best true random shuffle available by not only writing the code that way but also conducting audits and publishing those results publicly.
I don't know what you have changed in the card algorithm, however, in almost every match one of the players is getting at least one 24 point hand. I initially dismissed this as random chance, but now having looked at the odds tables, the frequency of exceptionally high hands no longer appears to be random. I am not just saying this because I lost. I am getting the 24 point hands as frequently as my opponents. However, in one three game match each of us got a 24 point hand. This was after four or five other consecutive matches where one player received that score.
ReplyDeleteHi Seth, we have not changed a single thing at all with the shuffling/dealing/etc. since pretty much the day it was created. We do regular audits to make sure it is performing a truly random shuffle as well, and I'm sure the games you mentioned will be in our next audit. That said, I can definitely take a personal look into each of them if you can email me the details at support@FullerSystems.com Include your username and the approximate times as best you can remember them.
DeletePro Tip: Exit out of the game after 10 seconds when searching for a match to avoid being matched up against a player whose CR is 1500+points lower than yours. This is supposedto be a ladder league, not open play.
ReplyDeleteYou can exit the search early if you choose to only play those with the closest skill rating. However, remember that the CR is just the number used to represent what is ultimately a formula with several underlying values, which is partly why you can still be matched with someone with a lower CR and the system still allow the match.
DeleteIf a player with a 4100 CR plays someone with a 2600 CR and loses, does their CR drop more than if they had played someone with a closer CR such as 4080?
DeleteIt is not quite that simple, as a lot will depend on the relative confidence factors in play for each player. So what sounds like a simple question will actually result in a longer answer that only touches the surface here. Very generally speaking, if you lose to someone with a lower skill (which is roughly represented through the CR value you see), then you may see a CR drop more than when playing someone closer in CR. The big caveat here is that the system will recognize that such a loss could be a fluke, and doesn't give it very much weight (or the win for the other person, for that matter). Think of it as a "soft hit" to your CR. As such, if you turn around and win your next match, you will find it will bump you back up fairly quickly. If you continue to lose against lower ranked players, it will usually tend to continue to lower your rank (along with adjusting related confidence factors at some level) because the assumption is that if you continue to lose to lower ranked players then it is likely that your rank was too high. The system tries to account for situations where someone was incorrectly ranked too high, as well as too low. Again, that is an oversimplification, and I would encourage anyone interested to read more about how a system like the Glicko system are done, and particularly the derivatives of that system like what you will see as "TrueSkill" and others because we use those improvements here. This is a tricky thing, because it is important in a system like this to periodically challenge assumptions about higher ranked players with playing lower ranked players, while also giving the chance for lower ranked players to progress and prove they can win against the higher ranked players. There is of course no way to only play higher ranked players all of the time, as someone will always be playing someone lower than themselves. This is all even more confounded by the fact that the great game of cribbage is not 100% skill, and so any ranking of skill is even more challenging. Finding the balance of how low to go in finding a match, and how often, is something we have been tuning in the system for a while. I doubt there is a "perfect" balance.
DeleteI like this online game... don't play much online..but I like playing against the computer all levels... Daniel
ReplyDeleteI have to say that season 4 sucks!! I just lost again by over 50 pts.... I can't even count how may games have ended this way, maybe over 100!
ReplyDeleteCribbage Pro Admin props themselves up on their completely random coding for dealing. 1- most people don't know how to read code and 2- it isn't the cards in your hand that's the issue, it's typically the cut card. It's unbelievable how bias the cut cards are.
ReplyDeleteHi, we don't just rely on the offer to see the code (although nothing could be more definitive than that), but we also conduct and share audits as well. What else would you like to see that we have not already provided? The code itself isn't very complex here, and I will personally walk anyone through it any time. If you have even a basic understanding of math, you can absolutely understand it.
DeleteWhen it comes to the cut card, the card you select from the shuffled deck is always the card you get. No exceptions. If you select the 12th card from the top, th and system pulls that card out from the shuffled deck. This is another area where seeing the code itself is so very clear and easy to read and understand. It is about two lines that just say "get card x" and "Send card to the players". If you don't want to see the code for some reason, then what would you propose to see that would help everyone see how this works and how we can make such confident and strong claims about the fairness of the game? I'm seriously open to whatever ideas you or anyone else has here.
The Observer Bias is *very* strong.
DeleteUnknown’s comments are laughable.
DeleteLol. I feel sorry for the staff that they have to deal with this issue all the time. As mentioned previously, the observer bias is very strong. If you feel that the shuffler is not random, you can personally take your own stats to prove it, instead of observing a few random situations. You can write down the average points of your hand vs your opponents. After 1000 hands, it'll probably be very close to 8.0. If not, then you've got a point.
ReplyDeleteThese discussions can probably be avoided if this program provides us with more stats, like recording your average points per hand, average points per crib, pegging points, etc. This has been suggested before. However, it still has not been implemented.
Yes, the persistent "it cheats" or "stacked deck" claims can get old. I'm fairly certain that no matter what stats or data we include or otherwise share, that will persist due to simple human nature. People will believe things like that in spite of evidence, based on personal feelings, quite often.
DeleteAverage stats are something we do have on our list, along with many other suggestions and things we are working on (the complete list is literally thousands of items long). One reason you have not seen a lot of recent significant changes is that we are focused on some work that is taking a lot of time to complete. Once that is done, we should be able to get to some more of these other, relatively smaller, things. I appreciate your patience in that respect, but also understand that our "staff" is really just myself and my wife who inspired me to create the game. We do hire contractors from time to time, but that is pretty rare. What that means is that if one thing starts taking a lot of our time, everything else generally has to wait.
I've wondered about the size of your staff.
ReplyDeleteI used to handle my own personal stats on wins/losses but then you blocked my "scraping" of the top-50 list. ;)
For me, just opening up access to my data would be enough. If I could get my game data in a reasonable format I would handle the stats.